Curse

I Might Avenge U · Feb 15, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...63&postcount=2

Hello, I have been using Sabway for a long time now and I have realized common situations when using Sabway that I think it can be used to its fullest.

One situation I'd like to describe is this, both my guildie and I are often questing, or doing missions together, and both use Sabway often. When it comes time to team up, we half-ass the other three heroes and say "screw it, lets take 3 more necros".. Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, and in fact it works well in many places. But I do not believe that this could possibly be the best use of three extra heroes.

A Second Situation is one where there are no corpses to use a MM hero to it's fullest. Now there has to be a stronger use of a hero slot than the use of a Minion Master Hero.

============================
============================

Why was this post made?

This post was made in order to search other possibilities for uses of heroes, and hero synergy. I also would like to offer some experiences that I have found to work better with Sabway Necromancer Triad. I would also like to go over known reasons why Sabway is so effective.

============================
============================

What is Sabway?

Sabway is a 3-man hero build that is often found to be used amongst Guild Wars Guru players. This build was of course made by the infamous Sab
It involves three Necromancers and takes advantage of of the [wiki]Soul Reaping[/wiki] Attribute. The ideas behind this are quite brilliant and show so when actually used.

============================
============================

Why does Sabway work

Sabway works well because it makes use of various "utility skills" or skills that help the party in ways besides basic healing. Skills that add party wide blocking, like [wiki]Aegis[/wiki] or Hex removal skills that can help out the healing Necromancer by removing some of the pressure that can be accumulated by hexes.

Sabway also makes use of a common necromancer build. The Minion Master adds a nice Tanking aspect to the build with the use of only four skills. This also allows the for the splitting of roles between the three heroes. For example: The healing necromancer is used to remove conditions and heal the party at the same time, but because the Minion Master hero only needs to use four of his 8 available skills, he can also allow for extra protection skills that help the healing necromancer with his duties.

The build can most easily be described with this triangle:

Code:

          
                                   Defense
                                     /\
                                    /  \
                                   /    \
                                  /      \
                                 /        \
                                /          \
                               /            \
                           Healing------Utility

============================
============================

When does Sabway /Fail?

Rarely does this build have a chance to show it's weaknesses, but there are situations where this build doesn't meet up to the requirements. One would be the Second situation I described. This is of course one where there are no Flesh corpses available, defeating one of the reasons why this build Works.

When we look back at the Triangle of Sabway-ness:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Triangle of Sabway-Ness

Code:

          
                                  Defense
                                     /\
                                    /  \
                                   /    \
                                  /      \
                                 /        \
                                /          \
                               /            \
                            Healing------Utility

We will notice that if you take out the defense that the defense is taken out of the equation, the triangle just isn't so "Triangly" any more... So therefore the build is much less effective. See how da triangle thingy works?..

Now you may ask, "why the hell does any of this matter?" Well, These things must be understood when trying to synergize with the the Necromancer Triad, or when modifying it to work in different places.

============================
============================

Ways we can solve these problems

As with any hero build, we can use synergy to help out the other heroes, without sacrificing the utility of the actual hero slot.

4/6-Man Areas requiring a hero swapout

http://jordanlovato.googlepages.com/...Paragon-01.png

[skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill][skill]Glowing Signet[/skill][skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill][skill]"Stand your Ground!"[/skill][skill]Angelic Bond[/skill][skill]Anthem of Flame[/skill][skill]Hexbreaker Aria[/skill][skill]Signet Of Return[/skill]

Code: OQCjUqmK6OP4WcPuGPjrwjY5NA

This is a fairly strong build to use in small four man areas without corpses, or if you need to swap out any of the Necro Triad in order to get better output for a hero Slot. I was fairly effective, and proved to be solid enough to vanquish Plains of Jarin (Swapped with Sab's MM build). It has good energy management, with the Primary attribute being helped by Glowing Signet. You have good damage reduction, and Angelic bond helps to spread the damage around.

Variants: Make the Paragon P/Rt and Swap [wiki]Signet of Return[/wiki] for [wiki]Death Pact Signet[/wiki].

Swap out [wiki]Angelic Bond[/wiki] for [wiki]Defensive Anthem[/wiki] for groups of 8 people.

More Builds to come

============================
============================

Well, thank you for reading. I am interested in other people's finding, and research relevant to the subject of Sabway. So I implore you, take these theories and concepts to draw up new ideas and ways that we may perfect our heroes with the Sabway build. Anything you want to post that can help this post out would be fantastic. Any contribution are appreciated.

**Special thanks to Sab for the inspiration and the excellent hero builds. Bravo..

Will probably continue to expand more on my ideas later on and offer new builds with more and more research. Keep in touch...

kel77 · Feb 15, 2008, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Most of the 8 man areas I vanquish, my buddy ( a ranger) runs sab's 3 necro's and I (a warrior) run a paragon motivation hero, a mesmer interupter with [skill=text]empathic removal[/skill] or [skill=text]expel hexes[/skill], and a N/mo WoH hybrid. I believe that these builds synergize extremely well, vanquishing most places is too easy. We can practically go afk most of the time, on a big mob that will take a while I just flag heroes and go afk to wash dishes or make a sandwhich while the heroes kill for me XD

The paragon usually is /w for WY! and shields up!, and her elite is usually Song of Restoration. I use alot more motivation for defense and healing...good stuff, helps to round out the party alot. I don't really like your paragon bars, too much leadership spec and not enough shouts and chants, almost all spear attacks are not as good as shouts, chants etc...

Gwen has lots of nice interupts that she can spam, and one of the elite utility spells to relieve pressure off other healers. Having stunning strike on your paragon pretty much aleviates a need for her though...

My livia I run as a pretty standard hybrid WoH bar, with a few more expensive spells that you couldn't give a monk hero, such as aegis, heal other, and healing ribbon. I don't really like bonding,(use defensive paragon instead?) and I also think it is unnecessary in this case. A normal healer/prot will do fine.

The only problem is that there are a lot of squishies in the party, so despite having a minion wall if something gets to the backline there's gonna be problems, enfeebling blood is often to difficult for a hero to use correctly.....

To sum up my post, you need defense against physical dmg because you have a lot of squishies, and you need something more substantial for healing.( unless you run the bonder AND an additional monk)

Hope this post helped and made sense

Kel

Cathode_Reborn · Feb 15, 2008, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by kel77

I believe that these builds synergize extremely well, vanquishing most places is too easy. We can practically go afk most of the time, on a big mob that will take a while I just flag heroes and go afk to wash dishes or make a sandwhich while the heroes kill for me XD

imo, vaquishing doesn't really provide a challenge. I'm not a vanquisher, but every area I've done (with or without another person) has been somewhat easy. There's plenty of times to stop to rest, regen, etc. Often the mob size isn't that threatening. I think the real challenges are HM DoA, Slaver's exile (this one is fun), Urgoz, the Deep, and a very few missions. If you can go afk while your h/h team does all the work, part of it could be a good team setup....the other half is that most pve isn't very difficult.

Mouse at Large · Feb 15, 2008, 07:50 AM // 07:50

In terms of Sabs useage, and apart from areas which clearly indicate its ineffectiveness (lack of exploitable corpses). I've found thie following very effective.

Warrior (puller) +Sabs

Myself (ele MB burner) + Rt/N Explosive Growth/Boon of Creation etc. as secondary MM + Prot Monk + optional (Interrupter or Nuker as required)

Once you get the simple tactics established (generally to pull manageable mobs into minion army), most vanquishes are a breeze

pygar · Feb 15, 2008, 08:52 AM // 08:52

I understand throwing P-gons in with Sabway, Minions count toward leadership bonus.... Unfortunatly tho Minions aren't getting any of the bonuses from the paragon (most Paragon shouts are tricky on who they work on or not) "Go For The Eyes!" would be a good add somewhere because it's one of the few shouts that minions or pets do benefit from.

Antithesis · Feb 15, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

As good as Sabway may be, HM PvE isn't that much harder than NM. For the reasons described in the OP, Sab's can be fragile at times and is not the be-all and end-all of Vanquishing builds, particularly in the defense department.

I've had an equal amount of success with an E/Rt Blindbot Channeler (this rocks, massive melee defense + Channeling spam, much prefer it to Sab's SS), a BHA+Volley+Epidemic Ranger (interrupts that are lacking in Sab's, spreads mass conditions) and a N/Rt Healer (similar to Sab's, doesn't need minions). I've also used Racthoh's Paragon Buddies with no problems at all.

I don't think it's a matter of perfecting Sab's necros, it's a matter of what else to take with them. Or which one to substitute in or out depending on the area you're vanquishing. Or a second player's heroes to complement Sabway. After a lot of faffing around, here's the team build i'm currently using -

God Mode Paragon or God Mode D-Slasher (my mains, any class will do, Save Yourselves helps), Racthoh's Song of Purification Paragon (Aria of Zeal dropped for Finale of Restoration, Merciless Spear dropped for Chest Thumper), N/Rt Healer (based on Sab's), E/Rt Blindbot (dual attunement works best), N/Mo Minion Bomber (Sab's), BHA+Volley Ranger, D/N Arcane Orders (Rac's) and a WoH Monk or Hex Eater Vortex Domination Mes.

Check out Racthoh's Paragons and my post for the E/Rt, R/Me and N/Rt.

To the OP - I'd strongly suggest you read Racthoh's builds to learn how to create a Paragon. No point posting untested builds, particularly when they're taking poor advantage of the Paragon's strengths.

Shaz · Feb 15, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Might Avenge U

Defensive - Utility Paragon

P/Mo

[skill]Angelic Bond[/skill][skill]Life Bond[/skill][skill]Anthem of Flame[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Glowing Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]

14 - Leadership
12 - Protection Prayers

~ Minor Rune of Leadership
~ Best Vigor Rune
~ Headpiece of Leadership

* Best used in synergy with Sabway or to Replace a minion master

This is actually a very defensive paragon that you may consider bringing under circumstances where you will be facing some pretty heavy damage from creatures in general. Example: the HM Charr in Grothmar's Wardowns are a full of serious DPS. This may be considered to use in order to survive against the Seekers and Flameshielders.

I see what you're trying to achieve there but any paragon build with 0 Spear Mastery is just bad. Life Bond, Angelic Bond, and Protective Spirit on a single bar is overkill. Even with their godly e-management with leadership, with only 2 energy regeneration on the paragon, any maintained enchantment is not the best choice to go with. I don't particularly like the other 2 paragon build either but it's not as useless as this one. Angelic Bond should be enough, take prot attribute and skills down, and spec in Spear Mastery instead and add in spear attack skills.

Even then, I do not like Angelic Bond in an 8man party because I usually have enough utilities skills spread out on each heroes. And from my experience, they're not very good with Angelic Bond at 2 seconds cast to be effective so you have to micro it if you want to pre-prot someone to get the most out of the skill. The only time I use Angelic Bond is when I vanquish 4man areas using Racthoh's build. Because utilities skills are limited in a 4man build and because most of the healing are in the form of party healing, and it's easier to pre-prot with just 4.

Terraban · Feb 15, 2008, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

I see what you're trying to achieve there but any paragon build with 0 Spear Mastery is just bad. Life Bond, Angelic Bond, and Protective Spirit on a single bar is overkill. Even with their godly e-management with leadership, with only 2 energy regeneration on the paragon, any maintained enchantment is not the best choice to go with. I don't particularly like the other 2 paragon build either but it's not as useless as this one. Angelic Bond should be enough, take prot attribute and skills down, and spec in Spear Mastery instead and add in spear attack skills.

That build doesn't have godly e-management...

That build is just utter /fail.

Full of 10 energy skills, maintained enchants, no Spear, no Adrenaline shouts, no e-management at all, unless you count the signet, which is just lol.

I am actually wondering if the OP knows that Paragons only have 2 pips.

Shaz · Feb 15, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

That build doesn't have godly e-management...

That build is just utter /fail.

Full of 10 energy skills, maintained enchants, no Spear, no Adrenaline shouts, no e-management at all, unless you count the signet, which is just lol.

I am actually wondering if the OP knows that Paragons only have 2 pips.

I know, I was just stating that paragon has godly e-management in general

, not that particular build.

I Might Avenge U · Feb 16, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

You know, I'm horribly crappy at making many builds..

But thanks for the feedback, as it helps in general, I'm going to take the builds down for now as I don't think they are actually helping anyone, and I'll come back post "better" more "sensible" builds when I get the chance...

In the mean time, I'll leave it blank unless somebody would like to share..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Check out Racthoh's Paragons and my post for the E/Rt, R/Me and N/Rt.

To the OP - I'd strongly suggest you read Racthoh's builds to learn how to create a Paragon. No point posting untested builds, particularly when they're taking poor advantage of the Paragon's strengths.

I'm seriously considering slapping myself as I didn't do the proper research that should be devoted before actually posting. Anyways, I'll check out all the links, and other various things posted..

KTHXBAI..

Antithesis · Feb 16, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by kel77

The only problem is that there are a lot of squishies in the party, so despite having a minion wall if something gets to the backline there's gonna be problems, enfeebling blood is often to difficult for a hero to use correctly.....

Try the E/Rt Blindbot Channeler i posted, it's awesome at backline defense and contributes offensively with Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage spam. If the melee train and rangers are blind, that's 90% block. It's also tossing around Cracked Armor and Weakness to all but eliminate the physical threat. Cracked Armor passively buffs the damage inflicted by both your team members and minions against high armour foes, so it's a great substitute for the erratic SS.

About the only place i shouldn't have taken it so far is Hell's Precipice - the amount of Mesmer interrupts / Necro enchant stripping made him all but useless due to e-denial in this zone, but it was still vanquished at 10% morale.

kel77 · Feb 16, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Might Avenge U

You know, I'm horribly crappy at making many builds..

In the mean time, I'll leave it blank unless somebody would like to share..

KTHXBAI..

Don't stress out about it buddy...I'll post the motivation paragon I use with sabway.
Your choice of elite [skill]Empathic Removal[/skill] or [skill]Song of restoration[/skill]
[skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill]
[skill]"Shields Up!"[/skill]
[skill]Hexbreaker Aria[/skill]
[skill]Ballad of Restoration[/skill]
[skill]Signet of Return[/skill]
[skill]Signet of Synergy[/skill]
[skill]Disrupting Throw[/skill]

You can sub out hexbreaker aria if it's not needed and put in [skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] if you are running ele's or possibly another spear attack such as lightning spear.

I Might Avenge U · Feb 18, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51

After doing a bit more research on what works, and what doesn't I've come up with a defensive paragon build. More details are in the Main Post, so check it out, and gimmie some feedback.

Thanks for reading as always..

http://jordanlovato.googlepages.com/...Paragon-01.png

Cathode_Reborn · Feb 18, 2008, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Might Avenge U

After doing a bit more research on what works, and what doesn't I've come up with a defensive paragon build. More details are in the Main Post, so check it out, and gimmie some feedback.

Thanks for reading as always..

http://jordanlovato.googlepages.com/...Paragon-01.png

The build has 11 in command but the only skill used is "Stand your ground". You'd benefit alot more by spec'ing into tactics and replacing it with "Watch yourself". Only slightly less armor, but it's unconditional, 0 downtime, and gets you back energy. You could probably drop Glowing signet then. "They're on fire" isn't that great with Anthem of flame as the only source of burning, unless you happen to have alot of phys attackers to trigger it.

Whenever I use a para hero, their spear mastery is always 13 at least. Many might disagree with this but I'm not really a fan of having very low spear mastery, when you consider the mechanics of pve. Besides all the enemies with unusually high armor, your chance to crit hit is lowered against anything that's lvl20+ (not sure by how much). Usually with a low rank, auto-attacks are junk, and Spear of lightning won't really help out. Even with a high rank, auto-attacks can do pretty lousy damage depending on the enemy. With that being said, any para hero I use will have 13-15 spear. Just my 2cents.

kel77 · Feb 18, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

The build has 11 in command but the only skill used is "Stand your ground". You'd benefit alot more by spec'ing into tactics and replacing it with "Watch yourself". Only slightly less armor, but it's unconditional, 0 downtime, and gets you back energy. You could probably drop Glowing signet then. "They're on fire" isn't that great with Anthem of flame as the only source of burning, unless you happen to have alot of phys attackers to trigger it.

All of this I was thinking as well, especially the part about they're on fire.

KennyC · Feb 18, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

A friend of mine runs the 3 necro build, she is an ele and in most scenarios runs a a fire damage build, however she sometimes plays the blindbot as the hero blinds everything (monks included) and I take another SF Ele.
Equipment = minor runes all round, the rest as you think best, superior runes are more of a hindrance I don't use them.
Weapons = +12e offhands with +5e fire spears for all henchies.
Para gets a command shield and a +5e Fire spear. (bonus spear is fine if you cant get +5e spears)

I use a Paragon with;
Spear of lightning, Spear Swipe, GFTE, Anthem of Flame(or Anthem of Weakness) SY, TNTF, Focused Anger and Aggressive Refrain.
OQGjUmmJKTPYiiVYWYieAhpbubA

My 3 Henchies are as follows.
An Ele Blinder.
OgVDMKyMOXVuRWFZkB6BEhwB
This blinds everything, making Melee useless against you. Essential.

A Monk
OwUTMyGDzRjsR+dTfiQPIDgGBA
My hero monk seems to use this very well, energy don't seem to be a problem.

An SF Ele.
OgVDMpycO0txKywXQLwF9gMA

All 3 hero's can take mantra's if you are going into an area with a large amount of a specific elemental damage, aside from that the build is pretty much fire and forget. It's allowed us to vanquish most areas with only a few variations to the build.

I Might Avenge U · Feb 18, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Sweet, I'll get testing all of this..

Thanks for the posts..

Terraban · Feb 20, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Would definitely take out Hexbreaker Aria from your build at the top. You rarely need party-wide hex removals, and when you do, Hexbreaker Aria isn't strong enough to even put a dent into it.

I agree with the swapping Glowing Signet+Stand Your Ground for Watch Yourself and possibly Shields Up.

They're on Fire, as has already been mentioned, won't work well with so little burning.

[skill]Angelic Bond[/skill][skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill][skill]Vicious Attack[/skill][skill]Anthem of Flame[/skill][skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill][skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill][skill]"Shields Up!"[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]

Spear Mastery: 11 + 2 + 1
Leadership: 10 + 2
Tactics: 10

Anthem of Flame is just a filler skill really, could be substituted I guess.

And yes I know...Major and Superior runes are frowned upon, but come on, ranged with 120ish armor, I think they can get by with ~460 health.

kel77 · Feb 20, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Hexbreaker aria is great and almost necessary in most areas, especially considering that sab's healer has no hex removal. One monk with one hex removal won't do it in most areas, so HA is there. Much better then Anthem of flame in that build imo.

MercenaryKnight · Feb 23, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

I have been thinking about it lately. And while the minion bomber sab build is great. Sometimes I just don't want to deal with the hassle of watching him do the death nova boogy.

I am almost wondering if we can shift that from a minion bomber/ tank to a minion master mainly utilizing animate bone fiends for ranged damage. Mainly because when I run the sab build with my girlfriend I use rac's paragons and bring the ebon ward which should increase damage by a fair amount.